Dragon Age 2

[ghostveil]

Got it, played it for a few hours last night.

So far I'm not impressed. The original Dragon Age was a bit of a mixed bag for me, it had it's issues, but the fact of the matter is that it got a good 70 hours out of me in my first playthrough, and I enjoyed it. It was interesting, the environments were great, the combat was decent (If not horribly imbalanced), many of the characters were interesting (Just as many were not). All in all, a good game with some minor flaws here and there.

I went into Dragon Age 2 expecting a massive improvement over the original. After all, that's basically what Bioware advertised, and Mass Effect 2 was a massive improvement over Mass Effect 1. Expectations were high.

Not only has Dragon Age 2 not met my expectations, it has fallen below the standards set by the original game. So far, Dragon Age 2 is WORSE than Dragon Age 1. The game feels lazy, thrown together, and a huge cash grab built by a B team at Bioware.

The combat is awful. Playing this game on a PC is just clunky, the controls are WoW controls done wrong, with the game forcing you to right click on a target to auto attack, and then hit number keys to use abilities. The problem is that finding targets to autoattack is so clunky that you have to pause the game every time you change targets...and you change targets often.

Not that it matters, because for the most part combat is so easy that you barely have to lift a finger to win most fights.

None of the characters I've met so far are interesting. The only remotely interesting characters are ones that are throwbacks from the original Dragon Age (Not really spoilers: Flemmeth and the "Enchantment? Enchantment!" dwarf). Your main party members are, so far, completely dull and uninteresting.

But not nearly so uninteresting as the level design. Dragon Age had fluid and natural looking levels, with interesting architecture and varied environments. So far, Dragon Age 2's level design can be summed up simply as this: Rectangular area with a floor texture and wall textures, with occasional doors on the walls, connected to staircases/hallways leading to other rectangular areas. Populating these rectangular areas are random pots and boxes and NPCs, and not much else. No buildings at all (Buildings are all just doors in the wall).

And that's for the outdoor areas. Indoor doesn't get much better.

I honestly cannot believe how lazy and thrown together this game feels. I dare someone to look at the in-game cutscene of your character arriving to Kirkwall and not laugh at the 10-15 year old style polygonal rocks your character passes by. You could count the number of polygons in the rock walls on two hands.

I'm only 2-3 hours in, but so far Dragon Age 2 is a massive, $60 disappointment. I'd stay away from it unless you're the most diehard Dragon Age fan.

[gothicshark]

grrr I want it but I have to wait.

[ghostveil]

Don't do it! Don't make my mistake! It's not worth it!

[gothicshark]

Mar 9, 2011 10:31:41 GMT -5 ghostveil said:

Don't do it! Don't make my mistake! It's not worth it!

I played DA:O for 5 months straight, I didn't like Mass Effect 2, didn't feel like an RPG, I loved Bualders gate for the PC, and Neverwinters, Icewind dales, ... I am for lack of a better term a Hard Core fan of D&D style game-play, I always turn turn-based on if it is an Option.

So realizing that I feel ME2 barley passes my RPG filter (story line is the reason I played it through, that and I want to mine the galaxy).

do you think it would be a waste of my time? Since I prefer the game-play of ME1 and the old school RPGs.

---

On a side note I played SWG for almost 5 years. I still have an Active EQ account.

Not saying my tastes in games is a good one, but I do know what style of game play I like.

[shadewing]

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how much fun I'm having.

Seriously though, press the R button. There's a reason why it's bound to "attack nearest target" I also find it funny how you say DA2's combat is clunky and done wrong, then you go and describe exactly what Origins combat is.

If you don't find the characters interesting, then that's kind of your fault, because Flemeth and Sandal are far from the only interesting characters in the game.

Anyway gothic, if you're a huge fan of the old school games, then don't get DA2, because it's not old school *cough*clunky*cough* enough to be considered an RPG, I guess.

I guess there really is a huge rift in the bioware fans.

[The Cheshire Cat]

I haven't played anything but the demo, so I can't comment on the full game, but from what I've seen it's got more in common with Mass Effect than Dragon Age: Origins, so take from that what you will.

Personally I don't know, I'm not really excited enough by it to want to buy it. I liked DA:O but I think I'm just burnt out on Bioware at the moment. They've put out a LOT of stuff in the last couple years.

[drjackwolfe]

Really Shade? The old Gold Box Games, the icewind dale and BG games clunky? Gotta be an age thing, because other then the animation and voice acting they are vera closs. I haven't picked up DA2 for the pc yet because I just picked DA:O for the PC (after deciding I ddin't want to through the xbox one again) and it feels just like those old gold box/BG games. Semi, you know deeper tactics in the semi realtime combat, but really hitting the spot.


Jack
(who wants gold box and BG ported to his ipad)

[shadewing]

I do think sometimes people forget you can still pause and play the game exactly like Origins in their blind rage

[Warp Factor]

So far I've only gotten to the gates of the first city, so I can't comment too much. So far though, I have to mostly disagree; the combat plays exactly like it did in DA1 to me, in every way, other than being faster paced. I actually liked tanking better in DA1 since the slower pace let me be a bit more methodical, but other than that I like it as much or better. I haven't seen enough of the NPCs to really make a judgement. Level design... let's just say I expect the rest of the game to be more interesting than the escape from Lothering. It's Bioware, and they haven't let me down yet, so I'm optimistic, but I really wasn't a fan of that sequence.

Also, regarding the comparison between DA1 -> DA2 and ME1 -> ME2, I do agree that ME2 was a much bigger improvement over ME1. However, I would argue that in every way other than creating a world/universe, DA1 was a superior game to ME1. I think there was need for improvement in the ME series that just isn't there in the DA series.

[fenix]

Just beat DA2. Story was fantastic. Other then that, I'm staying out of this entirely. Except to say one thing.

Jack, you know that tactical view in the first game that you liked so much in the PC version? It seems to have been excised from the PC version in this game. Take that as it will.

Alright, now back to bickering about how games in the past were either more tactical, and the newer games are too simple, or how the old games were overly complex and the new ones are more streamlined. Don't mind me, I'll just be over here, minding my own business.

[caios]

Here's my thoughts on this:

While I have yet to beat it, I've been trying to get as much DA2 in as I can.

People love to complain about it in much the same way they complained about ME2 being dumbed down. But in the end the proof is in the pudding. If more people enjoy, play, and of course pay for, this more streamlined style of RPG then Bioware is doing the right thing. But then if that's what you're focusing on, you may be missing the point.

For me that matters is that this is a fun, fun game that I'm really enjoying, much like ME2. It's more action oriented, and no more complicated then it needs to be, meaning it still has all of the RPG stables but not so many that they get tedious. That's why if you find gear, for the most part you only need to worry about whether or not it's an upgrade for you. Let's face it that's the first thing you did when you got gear, YOUR character got all the best gear, and everything else was trickled down to your companions. Which is nice but it gets boring fast.

Instead, your companions now can clothe themselves, sticking with their own style, making them much more unique and interesting characters rather then glorified dolls for you to play with.

The combat remains much the same as the original Dragonage only more intense, with more action, and more going on. Does this mean the tactical nature of Origins is gone? HELL NO. You can still pause the game any time and give step by step individual commands to everyone. The AI in general is smarter and has a larger array of tactics that make sense, so you can usually program a companion in the tactics menu and be secure knowing they won't do stupid things as soon as you stop paying attention to them.

In the end what is comes down to is DA2 is more exciting, or at least that's the idea, by allowing you to focus on the playing the game and less on managing it.

The complaint that people have is that Bioware is moving away from the detailed complex "in depth" RPG format that it is known for from the good old BG games.

While I completely disagree with that this sentiment should be mandatory in all Bioware games, especially when it came to ME2, I have to admit it does have merit when it comes to the Dragonage series. For Mass Effect 2 this worked really well since it was more of a shooter RPG to begin with. I absolutely hated the mere suggestion that ME2 wasn't an RPG because you couldn't do all the classic RPG elements across the entire spectrum. It's a flat out dumb as shit stupid notion that pisses me off and just screams nothing more then ignorant RPG elitism. However that doesn't mean that the detailed and complex systems normally associated with RPGs are invalid as a gameplay option.

Regardless of how much mass market appeal this new gameplay formula might have for the Dragonage franchise, the fact remains that there is a very significant market of the hardcore RPGers who want as many details as possible to tweak with in their games. And as Dragonage is meant to be the spiritual successor to Baulder's Gate, this is somewhat of an implied promise that this is exactly the sort of people the Dragonage franchise should cater to, so in this sense I tend to agree with all the 'haters'.

This is the game where people expect the ability to really create their own character from scratch and really immerse themselves in their own chosen character, not a premade character with only a few knobs to turn by comparison. So it was important for people to be able to pick not just a class and gender, but a race and background to go with it, much like Origins. Perhaps they should have gone that route but this carries with it several problems.

One of the major things about this sequel is that the main character is fully voiced, which is a big deal to have in a character. It was quite a problem to be playing your Origins character, trying to have an intense but ultimately one sided conversation, since for the most part your character just stood there looking dumb while the people around her went off in long monologues about their life. Many times it was hard to tell just what the intended tone of a phrase was meant to be so if you were trying to be playful you might end up insulting people by accident. Now you know the intention behind your words before you say them, and you get to really hear them out and get behind your character and how you interact with the world around you. This conversation system I prefer far more then the old style.

Unfortunately all that voice over work takes time and money to put together. It's hard enough to voice every single possible thing the main character might say for every possible variation of the story, style, and personality you want to represent, and they're still doing it twice over for both male and female versions. Now having it to do it six different time, for both genders of all three races ( even more if they had added Qunari as a playable race ) that gets to be flat out unreasonable development costs. So it's understandable why they decided to go for this particular style, and I like the fact that they're giving you everything you need to really feel like you're in complete control of your character, but everything else they threw out and allowed you the player to focus on having fun, and in more exciting ways!

[gothicshark]

Caios, your review was interesting and it looks like I will save the $60 I can except a Shooter with RPG elements in a Sci-Fi game however sword and Sorcery is the realm of DnD, took me a while to enjoy ME2 because of the departure from RPG to 3rd person Shooter with a choice based rpg like system, and I will never consider it a true RPG, but if they did the same things to DA2 then I am uninterested, since it is a Fantasy RPG, the frist game played very close to the RPG style that bioware did best. but if they took out true inventory systems and made simplified Leveling to focus on an action game then it is not a game I will play. I happen to like RPG complexity I like figuring out complicated combos, I like managing the finances of my heroes. there is a reason why I mine the universe on ME2.

[caios]

Well I finished my first playthrough, Definately will be playing again once I finish another playthrough of Origins beforehand. Yes I'm insane, I know this.

Anyway, it's not as bad as it sounds or as people like to complain about it. In fact it was pretty awesome, and most of the things people complain about are actually what make this a great game. There's even a few seriously fucked up things that happen during the course of the game that I just can't spoil for you but you will want to play with.

It's good, and more importantly it's fun, and completely worth getting it.

[fenix]

Oh hey guys, if you don't feel like playing through Origins beforehand, but still want something other then the 3 in-game options...

social.bioware.com/project/4242/

There's an application for that. (Requires NET Framework 4.0)

[ghostveil]

I got through the second act last night. The game has finally gotten better, with some real story revealing itself at last.

I still prefer Dragon Age: Origins though. Dragon Age 2 feels way too constrained. It's not an epic adventure like Dragon Age: Origins was. Maybe that was the intention, but the gross lack of environments to play in speaks otherwise. A quote from one of the developers really sums up my thoughts on the experience: "Dragon Age 2 is a game I have to make excuses for."

When I think about the last two full games Bioware released (Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect 2), I think of all the places they took me, the experiences they showed me, the incredible imagination and effort that went into their creations.

In Dragon Age: Origins, I went on an epic journey, from the Battle of Ostagar, to Lothering, and then out into the world, to the Daelish Forests, to the capital city of Denerim, down into the depths of Orzammar and into the Deep Roads, to the heights of the Circle Tower, and then deep into The Fade itself. I fought a Dragon outside abandoned ruins on a snowy mountaintop, battled a massive invasion of Darkspawn at the Keep in Redcliffe, made deals with demons in their home plane, and more. The scope of Dragon Age: Origins was amazing.

Mass Effect 2 went even further. In Mass Effect 2 I fought inside the hull of a dead Reaper. I battled my way through a Collector Hive. I lead a strike team into the heart of a Geth Base. I had firefights on the back of a ship flying through a goddamn lightning storm. I walked on the husk of an Alliance ship that creaked and fell apart with every step I took. I blasted my way up the floors of a corporate tower, fighting off security forces on the way. I extracted Quarians under heavy Geth fire on a hostile world with a superhot star that burns people away in direct light. I dropped into an Alliance colony in the middle of a Collector attack. I can go on and on and on...

Dragon Age 2 lacks these sorts of grandiose, epic moments. Instead it tries to be more focused on a very small part of their world. This would be fine if this small part of their world was fantastic and amazing, but it's not. The setting just bothers me, especially after the scope of their last two games. Kirkwall is not a good enough city to be the entire setting of this game.

The savior of this game is Bioware's storytelling, which is as good as it ever was. They manage to tie in lots of smaller storylines into harder hitting events further down the road. I do think the introduction to these storylines is weak. The existence of a massive amount of boring, MMORPG style sidequests is not excused by story development further down the road. The introduction to these storylines should have been much stronger.

Also, there's a murder mystery storyline that frustrates me on every level. The end of the mystery is a hard hitting, emotional moment that I won't spoil, but I will say this: Your actions in this murder mystery, at any point along the way, are completely meaningless. You cannot find the killer until it is too late, no matter what you do. Also, the killer is just a random NPC, so it's not so much a mystery as it is you just taking note that someone is killing a bunch of people.

Despite all this, I'm still playing the game and I'm starting to enjoy it. The hallmark of Bioware is still there in a good story. I just wish everything surrounding that story was as good as it could, and should be.

Also, several developers of the game have come out and confirmed my exact suspicions about this game: It was rushed. Bioware probably wanted at least another year to work on this game, but EA demanded that it be released as early as it was. A year and a half is not enough time to make a game with the sort of scope Bioware likes to have with their main franchises. In short, Dragon Age 2, as it was released, is not the sort of game Bioware would have liked to have made. I can only wonder what might have been if Bioware had an extra year to fully develop this game into what they truly wanted it to be.

Edit: I think a lot of my problems with Dragon Age 2 has to do with my perspective about games. I make games for a living, so I tend to think of games as the harmonious amalgamation of hundreds of elements. It's not just about the graphics engine or the combat or the music, or the writing. It's not even about all of those things at once. It's about the interaction of every part of the game in creating a true experience. The moment I stepped into Dragon Age 2, things felt different from any other Bioware RPG I had played in recent memory. It's like going to a symphony and enjoying the music, and then going to that same symphony the next evening only half the orchestra is missing and the remaining half are out of tune. The talent of the musicians is still there, but the symphony isn't as beautiful as it should be.